working4christ2

**grannymh** · Today, 11:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwinch2

The Church has said that the Charismatic Movement is allowed, so that means I accept it as both valid and licit, provided that it is done within the mind of the Church. However, despite a good deal of searching, participating in several such discussions here on CAF and elsewhere, and knowing people involved in the movement, I am unable to find compelling evidence that the practices common to the movement have been a part of the Tradition of the Church at any point in her history.

First, there is compelling evidence of the practices of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal by the people in the Church of Corinth.

In addition, Amazon gives five stars to this book on compelling evidence for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal based on writings of the Church Fathers and Leaders in the first eight centuries of the Catholic Church.

Chirstian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
by Kilian McDonnell and George T. Montague.

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Init...owViewpoints=1

Eufrosnia · #32 Today, 11:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

My wife, our two children and I moved west of Chicago.... and she has met a few families that participate in the "Charismatic Renewal". I did a quick search and a little bit of reading and, I have to say that, I'm a little apprehensive. There are criticisms that the renewal distracts from Church teaching and move the liturgy to be more like Pentacostal Protestantism.

Hate to generalize based on a wiki and a cursory search... Anyone have any first hand experience with this movement?

The main problem I have with this movement is that it emphasizes a primarily emotional experience. The whole process becomes what do I get out of the process rather than did I worship God. If I felt happy and high, then I conclude that I did praise God and felt him. If I felt low, time to find a different place....

In this day and age where people are looking for actual reasons, and some others are taking advantage using these sort of emotional appeals, I think it best if we tried to be reasonable and not take this route.

Eufrosnia · #33 Today, 11:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

St. Paul, himself, presents compelling evidence of the practices of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal by the people in the Church of Corinth.

In addition, Amazon gives five stars to this book on compelling evidence for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal based on tradition of the first eight centuries of the Catholic Church.

Chirstian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
by Kilian McDonnell and George T. Montague.

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Init...owViewpoints=1

Well, the same St. Paul has a lot to say about those going around seeking these charismatic gifts. Did he not say something about those who just babble what no one cannot understand?

I think its better if we spoke using arguments and reasons others can understand rather than try to make it more unclear than it already is for many people today.

Quote:

Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their building up and encouragement and consolation. Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you in some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? It is the same way with lifeless instruments that produce sound, such as the flute or the harp. If they do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is being played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves; if in a tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different kinds of sounds in the world, and nothing is without sound. If then I do not know the meaning of a sound, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves; since you are eager for spiritual gifts, strive to excel in them for building up the church.
--1 Corinth 14:1-12

**grannymh** · #34 Today, 12:10 pm

Friends,

In order to emphasize the need for civil discussions filled with charity, I humbly recognize the number of misinterpretations of Scripture which often cause anger and get decent threads closed, etc.

Therefore, to avoid disaster, I now request that people, who are interested in St. Paul, to please provide chapter and verse from either Acts and/or the writings of St. Paul. I will do by best to give the Catholic Charismatic Renewal's interpretation.

For those who are interested in basic answers to simple questions, the following link is recommended.
http://brendancase.com/uploads/Key_t...ic_Renewal.pdf

Thank you for your kind consideration of this request.

jwinch2 · #35 Today, 12:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

First, there is compelling evidence of the practices of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal by the people in the Church of Corinth.

St. Paul certainly spoke of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However, I am unaware of any interpretations of St. Paul's Letters to the Corinthians by the Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, or spiritual masters, which suggest any sort of association with what St. Paul spoke of and the practices of the Charismatic movement. In fact, I am unaware of anything in the Catholic Church showing such a link prior to the Protestant Pentecostal movement.

Quote:

In addition, Amazon gives five stars to this book on compelling evidence for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal based on writings of the Church Fathers and Leaders in the first eight centuries of the Catholic Church.

Chirstian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
by Kilian McDonnell and George T. Montague.

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Init...owViewpoints=1

I've actually read this book, but thanks for the recommendation regardless. In fact, it may have been you who recommended it to me in the first place during one of our other discussions on the subject.

The book does a great job indeed of showing how there were much more frequent documentations of prophesy, healing miracles, etc. in the early Church than there are today. It also does a great job of tying such gifts into the reception of the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. In fact, that is the most consistent link drawn throughout the book.

However, what it does not do very well at all is to show a link between those things and the practices associated with the Charismatic movement. If anything, it would suggest that, if we wish to foster a renewal of these gifts, we should do two things: 1) provide better catechesis and ongoing formation on what it means to receive and live out the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation; and 2) seek a "renewal" in practicing the forms of prayer common to those times, such as Solemn Mass, the Divine Office, Lectio Divina, repeated recitation of certain Psalms, etc.

Eufrosnia · #36 Today, 12:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

Friends,

In order to emphasize the need for civil discussions filled with charity, I humbly recognize the number of misinterpretations of Scripture which often cause anger and get decent threads closed, etc.

Therefore, to avoid disaster, I now request that people, who are interested in St. Paul, to please provide chapter and verse from either Acts and/or the writings of St. Paul. I will do by best to give the Catholic Charismatic Renewal's interpretation.

For those who are interested in basic answers to simple questions, the following link is recommended.
http://brendancase.com/uploads/Key_t...ic_Renewal.pdf

Thank you for your kind consideration of this request.

Well, my questions are rather simple and I hope I don't offend you with how naive it may sound.

1) The first Pentecost gave the Apostles the gifts of the Holy Spirit to go out and preach. These gifts are received through the sacrament of confirmation by every Catholic and has been the case for around 2000 years now. So why the need for a new Pentecost? Do you want some new gifts that have not been there since before? How are these new gifts you seek suppossed to help us bring people back to the Church?

2) Since the ends of the first Pentecost was to equip the Apostles and others to go out and explain the good news and bring others to the faith, what exactly is present within the "Pentecostal movement" of today that has not been there before? Have the Pentecostals developed new reasoning techniques to justify the faith? A new understanding and philosophical framework perhaps to explain the reason to think Catholicism the true faith? Have they had a completely different understanding of the faith as interpreted and taught by the Church?

So it is my humble conclusion that the Pentecostal movement cannot add anything that has not already been there in the Church. I am frankly not sure what people are asking for in a new Pentecost. Are they questioning the efficacy of the Sacrament of Confirmation?

**grannymh** · #37 Today, 1:08 pm

From post 33.

Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their building up and encouragement and consolation. Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you in some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? It is the same way with lifeless instruments that produce sound, such as the flute or the harp. If they do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is being played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves; if in a tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different kinds of sounds in the world, and nothing is without sound. If then I do not know the meaning of a sound, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves; since you are eager for spiritual gifts, strive to excel in them for building up the church.
--1 Corinth 14:1-12

In this passage, St. Paul is reminding the people of Corinth that there are two separate and distinct gifts which employ the use of Tongues. Tongues, here, refers to the free act of yielding one's speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit. In turn, the Holy Spirit either forms the sounds as being a personal prayer to God or the Holy Spirit forms the sounds of God giving a public message to the assembled members.

It will be most helpful when one accepts the difference between using a personal Tongues gift and a public Tongues gift.

Even though I usually refer back to 1 Corinthians 12: 4-11, There is enough quoted above that people should be able to spot the difference between a gift in which a person prays to God and a second different gift in which God speaks publically to assembled members of the Catholic Church.

Valid question from post 33.
Well, the same St. Paul has a lot to say about those going around seeking these charismatic gifts. Did he not say something about those who just babble what no one cannot understand?

Answer, no.
Recall that St. Paul was correcting abuses of the people of Corinth. And recall that these people were actively aware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In the above passage, St. Paul is writing to people who do know the difference between the Holy Spirit gift of praying to God and the Holy Spirit gift of presenting God's message to the assembled members. What had apparently happened was that being influenced by pride they had over-emphasized the importance of the "badge" of praying in tongues. By the way, this same abuse can occur today.

One can tell that St. Paul was upset by what the favored Corinthians were doing, He was really making sure that they understood the difference between the two different gifts of the Holy Spirit, personal and public.

Any further questions?

Second comment from post 33.
I think its better if we spoke using arguments and reasons others can understand rather than try to make it more unclear than it already is for many people today.

Answer, absolutely.
I realize that there are times when explanations about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church sound as clear as mud. One reason is that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is talking in the language of St. Paul which is certainly not the normal lingo of today. I will do the best I can to be clear; but there are a few things one needs to learn even if, on the surface, they do not make modern sense. For example, the word speak. St. Paul uses the one word speak to refer to different kinds of speaking. One clue to understanding St .Paul is 1 Corinthians 14: 14-19.

Any further questions?

John of Woking · #38 Today, 1:10 pm

I have experience with the Catholic Charismatic renewal. I think this is a really positive movement but is quite unruly. There is a big danger of spiritual pride and cliques amongst these movements which means they must co-operate and submit to diocesan authority. Having said that there is no doubt in my mind that in its right place this is a fantastic blessing for the Church. I don't attend very often as I prefer the traditional Latin Mass but I still listen to a bit of Matt Maher and Poirier form time to time.

Eufrosnia · #39 Today, 1:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

From post 33.

Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their building up and encouragement and consolation. Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you in some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? It is the same way with lifeless instruments that produce sound, such as the flute or the harp. If they do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is being played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves; if in a tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different kinds of sounds in the world, and nothing is without sound. If then I do not know the meaning of a sound, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves; since you are eager for spiritual gifts, strive to excel in them for building up the church.
--1 Corinth 14:1-12

In this passage, St. Paul is reminding the people of Corinth that there are two separate and distinct gifts which employ the use of Tongues. Tongues, here, refers to the free act of yielding one's speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit. In turn, the Holy Spirit either forms the sounds as being a personal prayer to God or the Holy Spirit forms the sounds of God giving a public message to the assembled members.

It will be most helpful when one accepts the difference between using a personal Tongues gift and a public Tongues gift.

Even though I usually refer back to 1 Corinthians 12: 4-11, There is enough quoted above that people should be able to spot the difference between a gift in which a person prays to God and a second different gift in which God speaks publically to assembled members of the Catholic Church.

Valid question from post 33.
Well, the same St. Paul has a lot to say about those going around seeking these charismatic gifts. Did he not say something about those who just babble what no one cannot understand?

Answer, no.
Recall that St. Paul was correcting abuses of the people of Corinth. And recall that these people were actively aware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In the above passage, St. Paul is writing to people who do know the difference between the Holy Spirit gift of praying to God and the Holy Spirit gift of presenting God's message to the assembled members. What had apparently happened was that being influenced by pride they had over-emphasized the importance of the "badge" of praying in tongues. By the way, this same abuse can occur today.

One can tell that St. Paul was upset by what the favored Corinthians were doing, He was really making sure that they understood the difference between the two different gifts of the Holy Spirit, personal and public.

Any further questions?

Second comment from post 33.
I think its better if we spoke using arguments and reasons others can understand rather than try to make it more unclear than it already is for many people today.

Answer, absolutely.
I realize that there are times when explanations about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church sound as clear as mud. One reason is that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is talking in the language of St. Paul which is certainly not the normal lingo of today. I will do the best I can to be clear; but there are a few things one needs to learn even if, on the surface, they do not make modern sense. For example, the word speak. St. Paul uses the one word speak to refer to different kinds of speaking. One clue to understanding St .Paul is 1 Corinthians 14: 14-19.

Any further questions?

Well, I would like an answer to Post 36 of mine if you have the time.

Also, from what you said above, you seem to agree that we must express the faith clearly and give clear reasons to convert. In light of that, what exactly does the Charismatic movement offer in this sense? You yourself seem to admit that it is a bit muddy. So how can it then give reasons for someone to convert?

Perhaps it is this that St. Paul comments on when he says what is the point of these things if they don't build up the Church. Perhaps that is why the Catholic Church didn't pursue these thing with centrality for so many years since the early Church. It's not that such charisms were not there. It was just not considered as beneficial for building up the Church.

So what makes you think that is now beneficial and how does it communicate that Catholicism is the true religion to an observer? One could object that such a communication does not exist in these movements because there are those who even leave the Church as a result. So what and how does the Charismatic movement offer reasons to the non-Christian to embrace Catholicism?

**grannymh** · #40 Today, 1:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eufrosnia

Well, my questions are rather simple and I hope I don't offend you with how naive it may sound.

1) The first Pentecost gave the Apostles the gifts of the Holy Spirit to go out and preach. These gifts are received through the sacrament of confirmation by every Catholic and has been the case for around 2000 years now. So why the need for a new Pentecost? Do you want some new gifts that have not been there since before? How are these new gifts you seek suppossed to help us bring people back to the Church?

2) Since the ends of the first Pentecost was to equip the Apostles and others to go out and explain the good news and bring others to the faith, what exactly is present within the "Pentecostal movement" of today that has not been there before? Have the Pentecostals developed new reasoning techniques to justify the faith? A new understanding and philosophical framework perhaps to explain the reason to think Catholicism the true faith? Have they had a completely different understanding of the faith as interpreted and taught by the Church?

So it is my humble conclusion that the Pentecostal movement cannot add anything that has not already been there in the Church. I am frankly not sure what people are asking for in a new Pentecost. Are they questioning the efficacy of the Sacrament of Confirmation?

For a general answer, please refer to post 29 above.
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....6&postcount=29

In particular, the designation "Catholic Pentecostal Movement" was dropped because of the confusion you refer to. The early designation of Catholic Charismatic Renewal properly reflected that its existence was Catholic.

Point 1 one is correct in that gifts of the Holy Spirit are received through the Sacrament of Confirmation. What is being renewed today is the full set of "ministry" gifts listed by St. Paul in addition to a general renewal of the separate, distinct gift of praying in Tongues.

One of the reasons Catholics are asking for a new Pentecost is because at that point, people believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Eucharist. All one needs to do is to look at today's empty pews and the question of renewal is answered.

Regarding the efficacy of the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, there is no problem for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

codefro · #41 Today, 1:34 pm

Doesn't the Charismatic Renewal mean simply a renewal in devotion to the Holy Spirit? I have read (somewhere) that a charismatic knocks at the door to request the presence and gifts of the Holy Spirit. A mystic lets the Spirit dwell and work inside of them.

Tampa Dave · #42 Today, 1:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

My wife, our two children and I moved west of Chicago.... and she has met a few families that participate in the "Charismatic Renewal". I did a quick search and a little bit of reading and, I have to say that, I'm a little apprehensive. There are criticisms that the renewal distracts from Church teaching and move the liturgy to be more like Pentacostal Protestantism.

Hate to generalize based on a wiki and a cursory search... Anyone have any first hand experience with this movement?

My wife is actively involved in the Catholic charismatic renewal in a fairly liberal parish but, I must say, she is a very strict adherent to the faith. 100% in line with the Magisterium and the Holy See. It is definitely not for me. I enjoy Latin Masses and attend a different parish. It works for us.

**grannymh** · #43 Today, 2:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eufrosnia

Well, I would like an answer to Post 36 of mine if you have the time.

Also, from what you said above, you seem to agree that we must express the faith clearly and give clear reasons to convert. In light of that, what exactly does the Charismatic movement offer in this sense? You yourself seem to admit that it is a bit muddy.

May I gently point out that you have misunderstood what I said. The comment in post 37 was about explanations and not about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal itself -- only what happens when people try explaining.

From post 37,
"I realize that there are times when explanations about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church sound as clear as mud. One reason is that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is talking in the language of St. Paul which is certainly not the normal lingo of today. I will do the best I can to be clear; but there are a few things one needs to learn even if, on the surface, they do not make modern sense. For example, the word speak. St. Paul uses the one word speak to refer to different kinds of speaking. One clue to understanding St .Paul is 1 Corinthians 14: 14-19.

Eufrosnia · #44 Today, 2:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannymh

May I gently point out that you have misunderstood what I said. The comment in post 37 was about explanations and not about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal itself -- only what happens when people try explaining.

From post 37,
"I realize that there are times when explanations about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church sound as clear as mud. One reason is that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is talking in the language of St. Paul which is certainly not the normal lingo of today. I will do the best I can to be clear; but there are a few things one needs to learn even if, on the surface, they do not make modern sense. For example, the word speak. St. Paul uses the one word speak to refer to different kinds of speaking. One clue to understanding St .Paul is 1 Corinthians 14: 14-19.

So ok, let us say that Charismatics speak the lingo of St.Paul. Does that not make it even more inferior to the world of today?

All I am asking is the following. What is the point of the Charismatic movement in terms of giving reasons for people to convert to Catholicism? If there are none, then you have to agree that this movement is not worth it?

10thCrusader · #45 Today, 2:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriceA

Have you ever attended a Charismatic Mass? Or are you going by what others have told you? Any Charismatic Masses or Healing Masses I have attended, the healing and the praise and worship (tongues sometimes) take place after Mass has concluded. The Mass is licit and valid, nothing is changed and it is in accordance to the GIRM.

I have attended several Charismatic/Healing Masses as I wanted to make the First Friday devotions, and it was the only Mass available. These Masses were a rather unruly and unpleasant experience. I don't want to go into detail for fear of spreading scandal, but there were things done in the sanctuary before the Tabernacle that were quite inappropriate. It all seemed very new-agey. It scandalized me somewhat, so I had to stop my First Friday devotions in that parish.

Thankfully the FSSP provides First Friday Mass and Benediction in the parish I attend now.

working4christ2

Sunday, April 21, 2013

I have attended several Charismatic/Healing Masses as I wanted to make the First Friday devotions, and it was the only Mass available.

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