See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,

1I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally.

 2My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces^a of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh^b was put off when you were circumcised by^c Christ,

 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

1

3When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you^d alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.^e

Freedom From Human Rules

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.  

18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind.

 19They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

THe Hebrew Roots Movement Exposed - Part 2

Doubts and Questions on the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Mary, etc

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#1   Today, 3:22 pm

atc2 Trial Membership   Join Date: June 2, 2013 Posts: 2

Doubts and Questions on the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Mary, etc I have some questions regarding Catholic doctrine. I have been thinking about them and can't seem to get my thoughts straight and am seeking someone with whom to discuss them. I apologize that they are not orderly but I hope they are of interest and that you would join me in conversation. My first question comes from the liturgy of the Eucharist. I have no major qualms with the idea of Christ being fully present in the Eucharist, so that in and of itself does not bother me. What I don't understand is the language used during the liturgy. I know Catholic doctrine refutes the idea that it is sacrificing Christ again and again, but I do not understand the language that seems to suggest that the priest is offering up Christ in the Eucharist as a sacrifice. I understand saying that the bread and wine are our offering, but with the Holy Spirit turning our offering into our spiritual food and drink, isn't the presence of Christ not the priest's to offer up? I also am confused by the idea of needing to use the language of sacrifice. I understand Christ's sacrifice can be present for each of us in every moment, even though it was a "once and for all" sacrifice. But why does the language in the mass seem to suggest that the Eucharist is a necessary sacrifice made by the priest. Below are some of the words that bring these questions to mind: Priest: Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. All: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands, for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his holy Church. "Therefore, as we celebrate the memorial of his Death and Resurrection, we offer you, Lord, the Bread of life and the Chalice of salvation, giving thanks that you have held us worthy to be in your presence and minister to you." Another thing I do not understand, nor agree with, is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. I have read that there are documents from the early Church that support this doctrine. However, it seems to me that there is absolutely no necessity in having this doctrine. The Father works in mysterious ways, and of course the Incarnation is a great mystery. Why is there a need to claim that Mary was born without sin? Couldn't God use her to mother His Begotten Sin even if she were sinful? I also do not understand the need to claim that Mary remained a virgin. I understand that in order to align with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary would be completely pure. But having sexual relations in the context of true marriage does not in any way blemish some person, correct? I just don't understand the reasons for having such doctrine. Whether it is true or not seems to have no effect on God's plan of salvation through the offering of Jesus Christ. God would find a mother for His Son, and Mary is the blessed one who was chosen. And she is a great role model of faith, especially for Christian women, and I find that many denominations run away from talking about Mary because she is "too Catholic." But I do not understand why she holds such an important place in the "economy of salvation" seeing as God would reveal and work out His plan regardless of the faithfulness or unfaithfulness of man and woman. These doctrines, though I do not think in essence attempt to dethrone Christ or lessen His importance, seem to carry the attention of the faithful away from Christ. I have many other questions but feel these are the ones that come to mind at the moment. Because I have these disagreements with Catholic doctrine, I feel like I am out of line with what I see as the biggest claim of the Roman Catholic Church, that the Magisterium, when speaking on doctrine, is infallible. If I disagree with some doctrine, am I not disagreeing with the entirety of Catholicism as a whole? I guess I feel like there is no room for doubt in Catholicism. If I am truly Catholic in faith, would I not agree and follow the Magisterium's doctrine despite questions? I don't believe I am making much sense here, but any thoughts, explanations, and prayers would be so greatly appreciated. In Christ, Andrea

#2   Today, 4:31 pm

7armyrugrats Regular Member   Join Date: March 24, 2009 Posts: 519 Religion: Catholic

Re: Doubts and Questions on the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Mary, etc I am offering you my prayers. These are good questions that although I believe I know the answers to, I don't feel qualified to answer them. Hopefully someone who is qualified will come soon to help you with that

#3   Today, 4:37 pm

devoutchristian Regular Member   Join Date: March 14, 2012 Posts: 1,451 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Doubts and Questions on the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Mary, etc In regards to the Eucharist: The Mass is a re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice. When Christ was sacrificed he spiritually offered himself up. In the Mass thé priest acts in the person of Christ. He represents Christ who offered up Christ at Calvary. In regards to Mary: God is perfect. He could not inhabit a sinful creature, as he inhabited Mary for nine months. Therefore it was necessary that Mary be perfect. As to her perpetual virginity, she was spiritually the spouse of the Holy Spirit, in a similar way to how the Church is the bride of Christ, therefore it was necessary that she have sexual relations with no man. __________________ Quote: Originally Posted by dshix devoutchristian is correct.

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Thread Tools Search Thread Display   #1   Feb 22, '13, 7:11 pm ThePerson Trial Membership   Join Date: February 22, 2013 Posts: 3 Different religion I am not sure exactly where to put this, so I put it here. My friend is considering converting to another religion outside of Catholicism, which she has been part of since she was born. I have tried to talk her out of it, but she has made up her mind, and as her friend I have decided to respect her decision. She was baptized as a baby. Is there anything official she has to do to leave the Church? She is going to continue going to a Catholic school since she loves the small classes and teachers. The problem is, we go to mass once a month as a school. What should she do about that. I am asking because she is too afraid to ask for herself. Also, I am curious, if she leaves the church, but comes back, will she have to be baptized again? Any answers would be appreciated, thank you.   #2   Feb 22, '13, 8:06 pm subject97 New Member   Join Date: October 10, 2012 Posts: 65 Religion: Catholic, no adjectives Re: Different religion As far as I understand, she doesn't have to do anything official to leave the church, because in the eyes of the church and God, she is still Catholic. A non-practicing Catholic, but still a Catholic. If she does convert, then i suppose she'll just have to tell her teacher that she isn't Catholic and that she doesn't wish to go to Mass. If she does end up coming back then all she'll have to do is go to confession for leaving the church and she'll be set to go.   #3   Feb 22, '13, 9:38 pm robwar Suspended   Join Date: January 19, 2012 Posts: 2,245 Religion: Catholic Re: Different religion What is she converting to and do her parents know and what do they think about it?   #4   Feb 22, '13, 9:41 pm robwar Suspended   Join Date: January 19, 2012 Posts: 2,245 Religion: Catholic Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by ThePerson I am not sure exactly where to put this, so I put it here. My friend is considering converting to another religion outside of Catholicism, which she has been part of since she was born. I have tried to talk her out of it, but she has made up her mind, and as her friend I have decided to respect her decision. She was baptized as a baby. Is there anything official she has to do to leave the Church? She is going to continue going to a Catholic school since she loves the small classes and teachers. The problem is, we go to mass once a month as a school. What should she do about that. I am asking because she is too afraid to ask for herself. Also, I am curious, if she leaves the church, but comes back, will she have to be baptized again? Any answers would be appreciated, thank you. you are only baptized once. If someone left the church after confirmation, to come back to the Church, they would have to go to confession and then she would be in full standing. why does she want to leave? what is appealing about the other religion?   #5   Feb 22, '13, 9:57 pm 3DOCTORS Regular Member Book Club Member   Join Date: August 18, 2007 Posts: 3,218 Religion: ROMAN CATHOLIC Re: Different religion You might want to browse through this website's resources - who knows, you might find some materials that could help your friend with whatever spiritual crisis has caused her to want to switch religions. There are lots of good, in-depth materials here. Also check out EWTN's site and other reliable Catholic sites. To paraphrase Archbishop Fulton Sheen, most people don't really hate or reject the Catholic Church, but rather what they misunderstand the Catholic Church to be. __________________ Sugar and Spice, that's me . . . so don't mistake me for a "he"   #6   Feb 23, '13, 4:39 am JRKH Forum Elder   Join Date: September 14, 2007 Posts: 19,249 Religion: Catholic Revert Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by ThePerson I am not sure exactly where to put this, so I put it here. My friend is considering converting to another religion outside of Catholicism, which she has been part of since she was born. I have tried to talk her out of it, but she has made up her mind, and as her friend I have decided to respect her decision. You are indeed a very good friend. I would suggest you take the "prodigal son" parable as your inspiration here and recognize that she must follow her own spiritual course and that you (in the position of the father) must let her. Quote: She was baptized as a baby. Is there anything official she has to do to leave the Church? No - She would simply become a non-practicing Catholic. Quote: She is going to continue going to a Catholic school since she loves the small classes and teachers. The problem is, we go to mass once a month as a school. What should she do about that. I am asking because she is too afraid to ask for herself. Also, I am curious, if she leaves the church, but comes back, will she have to be baptized again? Any answers would be appreciated, thank you. She can still attend mass, but she needs to refrain from taking communion. Her fear to tell anyone disturbs me though. If she is convicted on this matter, why is she afraid? If she is afraid, this indicates to me that she is not sufficiently convicted in the matter and she needs to do some more research. As others have suggested, if you share some of the issues, where she intends to go, what her objections are to the Catholic Church etc...perhaps we can help her become more sure just where she belongs. Peace James __________________ The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire" Oh my God , I will continue to perform, all my actions for the love of Thee Amen.   #7   Feb 23, '13, 9:18 am Bezant Regular Member   Join Date: July 7, 2010 Posts: 2,545 Religion: Latin Catholic leaning East Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by ThePerson Is there anything official she has to do to leave the Church? Also, I am curious, if she leaves the church, but comes back, will she have to be baptized again? Any answers would be appreciated, thank you. From the view of the Catholic Church, there is no formal "exit" procedure. If she returned, she would seek the Sacrament of Penance and there would be no need to baptise her again. Quote: Originally Posted by ThePerson She is going to continue going to a Catholic school since she loves the small classes and teachers. The problem is, we go to mass once a month as a school. What should she do about that. I am asking because she is too afraid to ask for herself. Everyone (including non-Catholics and non-practising Catholics) are welcome to attend Mass, but only Catholics in good standing may recieve the Eucharist. However, you should encourage your friend to discuss her situation with the school. While it's understandably uncomfortable, making the school aware of her conversion might avoid future misunderstandings or problems.   #8   Feb 23, '13, 9:22 am Bezant Regular Member   Join Date: July 7, 2010 Posts: 2,545 Religion: Latin Catholic leaning East Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by 3DOCTORS You might want to browse through this website's resources - who knows, you might find some materials that could help your friend with whatever spiritual crisis has caused her to want to switch religions. How do you know her friend went through a spiritual crisis?   #9   Feb 23, '13, 10:21 am CarolNoel Junior Member   Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 471 Religion: Catholic Re: Different religion So sorry to hear about your friend. I know you will keep your friend in your thoughts and prayers and many of us on CAF will too.   #10   Feb 23, '13, 1:41 pm ThePerson Trial Membership   Join Date: February 22, 2013 Posts: 3 Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by JRKH Her fear to tell anyone disturbs me though. If she is convicted on this matter, why is she afraid? If she is afraid, this indicates to me that she is not sufficiently convicted in the matter and she needs to do some more research. As others have suggested, if you share some of the issues, where she intends to go, what her objections are to the Catholic Church etc...perhaps we can help her become more sure just where she belongs. Peace James I think she is afraid to tell anyone because she doesn't want them to think she is a bad person. I am not sure exactly what she wants to become, but I have seen her researching things like Wicca. I am also not sure exactly why she wants to leave the church because all she ever says is "It doesn't fit me."   #11   Feb 23, '13, 4:52 pm IgnatianPhilo Junior Member   Join Date: August 16, 2012 Posts: 430 Religion: Orthodox in the Greek communion Re: Different religion Does your friend know their own religion?   #12   Feb 24, '13, 2:53 am GaryTaylor Veteran Member   Join Date: March 30, 2010 Posts: 11,095 Religion: Catholic Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by ThePerson I think she is afraid to tell anyone because she doesn't want them to think she is a bad person. I am not sure exactly what she wants to become, but I have seen her researching things like Wicca. I am also not sure exactly why she wants to leave the church because all she ever says is "It doesn't fit me." She won't talk to a Priest? Why? __________________ The Mystical Vision of the Virgin Mother is not intended for merely passive enjoyment but has been said to carry a transforming power, as those who have had the privilege of beholding The Queen of Heaven have dedicated their lives to Her service.   #13   Feb 24, '13, 5:27 am PJM Veteran Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 9,055 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic Re: Different religion Quote: =ThePerson;10396044]I am not sure exactly where to put this, so I put it here. My friend is considering converting to another religion outside of Catholicism, which she has been part of since she was born. I have tried to talk her out of it, but she has made up her mind, and as her friend I have decided to respect her decision. She was baptized as a baby. Is there anything official she has to do to leave the Church? She is going to continue going to a Catholic school since she loves the small classes and teachers. The problem is, we go to mass once a month as a school. What should she do about that. I am asking because she is too afraid to ask for herself. Also, I am curious, if she leaves the church, but comes back, will she have to be baptized again? Any answers would be appreciated, thank you. No; one Baptism is ALL that is permitted and NEEDED for life. Consider these FACTS:[all provable from the bible itself; space permitting] Because we KNOW their is Only One God: "Perfect and Triune" their logically and factually can Only be One right set of Faith beliefs. God who IS Perfect simply cannot hold differing; even contradictory views on the identical issues. SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE. Christ invented the term "church" to make clear He was founding a New and a Necessary way to heaven Pagans had Temples Jews had Synagogues Christ followers WOULD have "church's" Because the Bible was completely authored by the end of the 1st. Century; the Bibles Canon set [the books selected and confirmed as Divinely Inspired] in the early 4th. Century AND NO OTHER "CHURCH" would even exist for about 700 years; each and every reference to "church" in the bible refers ONLY to today's CC. ONLY the CC has Jesus own protection Jn. 17: 15-19 The SEVEN Sacraments EACH instituted by Jesus Himself Jesus TRULY Present in the Eucharist The Sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness of sins [the Only method APPROVED by God] The Entirety of Christ Faith Teachings The ONLY Key's and access to heaven So anyone; and everyone for ANY reason who chooses to abandon the CC does factually put their SOULS at grave risk. St Paul warns of DIRE consequences for those who deny and abandon Christ only founded Church and set of Faith beliefs: Heb. 6: 4-8 "For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt. IT IS FAR MORE PRUDENT TO ACTUALLY MAKE THE EFFORT TO LEARN WHAT AND WHY WE BELIEVE AS WE DO BECAUSE IT IS; because IT IS; THE SINGULAR TRUTH! It is the singular and normal path to conditional salvation. Amen. Heaven and Hell are REAL. Pray about it. God bless, Pat/PJM __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."   #14   Feb 24, '13, 8:12 am JRKH Forum Elder   Join Date: September 14, 2007 Posts: 19,249 Religion: Catholic Revert Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by ThePerson I think she is afraid to tell anyone because she doesn't want them to think she is a bad person. I am not sure exactly what she wants to become, but I have seen her researching things like Wicca. I am also not sure exactly why she wants to leave the church because all she ever says is "It doesn't fit me." It might be useful for you to learn more about what she is looking into and why...Obviously she is looking for something that "fits her' and may not realize that it could very well exist within the Church. Being young her view of the Church is probably very legalistic. The Church has rules, and "bosses" etc. She likely sees the church as rather judgmental, and perhaps not very inclusive (gender issues?). She may see the Church as not being very tied to things natural or have a deeply spiritual aspect of the type that she might see in other belief systems. In most all of these cases she would be wrong. Yes the Church does have leaders and has many rules...but that is barely the surface and that surface only exists as evidence of much deeper and more profound spiritual aspects. If you can find out what is that draws her to some other faith or belief system, I'll wager that the same sort of spirituality can be found in Catholicism. You might ask her what her "ideal" spirituality would be (what "fits" her) and if you posted it here - or in a new thread - I'm sure that the good people here could point you and her to great spiritual reading and spiritual paths that would give her a great deal to think about and consider....(Catholics believe that???)(Catholic saints did that???) Try it. Be interested in her studies. Draw her out on what she is looking for. The Catholic Church headed by God's only Son, most likely has it in some form. Peace James __________________ The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire" Oh my God , I will continue to perform, all my actions for the love of Thee Amen.   #15   Feb 24, '13, 2:49 pm PJM Veteran Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 9,055 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic Re: Different religion Quote: Originally Posted by The Person View Post I think she is afraid to tell anyone because she doesn't want them to think she is a bad person. I am not sure exactly what she wants to become, but I have seen her researching things like Wicca. I am also not sure exactly why she wants to leave the church because all she ever says is "It doesn't fit me." We were ALL young once [me a LONG time ago] But youth alone is not a sufficient excuse for what your friend contemplates. God gives each of us only One life and one is prudent to Recognize this fact. One has no Guarantee of old or even "older age." Heaven AND hell are real and Eternity IS forever. God Bless, pat/PJM __________________ PJM http://working4christ2.wordpress.com Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO! A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."